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Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
My 2020 iMac has suffered from a "sticking keyboard" since new. I am on my 4th board but problem persisted. Whether on pages, emails, inserting passwords the keyboard would insert or delete extra digits or lines. Apple appeared unable to resolve but wondered whether Bluetooth connection to the iMac was at fault and asked me to try with the keyboard wired. At first this appeared to be the diagnosis..... but then the problem returned even when wired.

Apple then decided to do a reinstall of Big Sur. But first via "screen share" they did a Manual back-up to Time Machine to my 1TB external drive. (I realise with hindsight that they did not check that the backup had been successful). Then the OS was reinstalled, and using Migration Assistant the data was reinstalled..........except it wasn't. The Folder Structure is there but every folder is empty. Any previous backup prior to Apple's help has disappeared.

20 years of files, folders, emails, 4000 photo's and 3500 family tree entries........etc etc..........gone.

Apple say not their fault. They only "shared screen", whilst I actually pressed the keys. !! They think that my external HD failed (amazing coincidence) even though it is backing up ok now.

I feel mentally and physically sick.

At Apple's suggestion (but they say I pay, not them). I have contacted DriveSavers in California. They want me to ship my HD to the USA at their expense and they will evaluate what needs to be done but think likely cost will lie midway between £ 513 and £ 2862. !! If not successful they charge nowt.

Any help or comments gratefully received whilst I grab a stiff Brandy and consider my course of action whilst my arm is being twisted tight up behind my back.

Even if the data can be restored I will then still need Apple to resolve the original minor issue.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Tony Still
The first thing to do is to avoid writing anything more to the disks. If you end up needing a specialist data recovery then the less changes the better. I would turn off backups to the Time Machine drive until you have a better idea of what happened. There's an outside chance that there's still useful data on the Mac's disk too.

Do you know if previous TM backups were working correctly? If you're confident that they were then that data can probably be accessed. Checking the free space available on the TM drive may give you an idea of what has happened (checking that won't cause anything to be written to the drive).

There are probably data recovery outfits in the UK that could provide a similar, but faster service, so that's worth investigating and you could perhaps phone and ask their advice.

Think hard about where else there may be copies of your data (iCloud?). I also think that your iMac may have a fault: four faulty keyboards in a row suggests that the problem is not in the keyboards at all but in the computer.

There may be some other things you can do but, at first sight, you're probably going to need expert help. Another long shot would be to ask the very wonderful Howard Oakley for advice.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Euan Williams
There is recovery software such as Disk Drill which may help, but heed Tony's clear advice not to write anything to your compromised drive - run your mac from an equivalent macOS on an external drive (Option key pressed at startup).

It works by reading the reserve disk structure info and writing the results to a separate 'clean' and suitable macOS formatted external drive. With a 2020 iMac APFS 'snapshots' may be a help too.

Even if you have to buy a couple of new 1TB externals and reformat them for your macOS (probably APFS format) it will be cheaper than Pro disc recovery and the new discs will hold all those backups you wish you had. Provided you don't write to your internal drive further recovery methods should not be compromised.

There is an established Disc Recovery Service in Portsmouth (their site offers useful advice).
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Everyone else: Backup! Backup!! Backup!!! That means three separate backups in three different physical places for your really important data.

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
Thank you Euan and Tony for your comments thus far.

Without diving in to and following the detail of those replies, I have some initial comments and questions.

1. The hopeless response by Apple to the year long problem (allegedly keyboard). And now its shrug of the shoulders in disassociating itself from any responsibilty for my current dilemma.

2. I had not expected the data to be lost from both the new iMac and the external HD at the same time (but caused by Apples intervention). Yes Euan, it shows why one should have more than one single external HD. But the chance of simultaneous failure seemed extreme.

3. Before this event and the need for the posting, I had planned to replace my existing HD. (Still backing-up quite efficiently so seems unlikely to have failed, and yes Tony I will now disconnect). Obviously should have done this before, rather than do it soon !!

4. I intended to buy 2 new HDs, but am unclear how this expenditure sidesteps the Pro-recovery cost. Surely I’m caught for this in order to recover all data prior to today? Or do I misunderstand?

5. I have yet to look at UK based data recovery but what I don’t want to do is to use some paid for programme and it messes things up still further, or likewise let the HD go to some back-street outfit and likewise.

6. DriveSavers website implies that they now offer a service for London/UK users. ( for multi-nationals, do they fly an expert over from the States?). but I was told that my measly domestic HD must go across the pond to the USA.

7. Also, I was told that the type of Drive on the 2020 iMac means that this cannot be accessed nor investigated for any data that may be hiding in the background.



Answers and responses on a postcard or perhaps repeat Euan’s often well rehearsed tub thumping backup exhortations. But in my case…….I thought I’d done it but any way the experts (ie Apple) were going to sort it. But now I won’t go round that circle again.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Derek Wright
The Disc recovery service might be located in a back street (most of Portsmouth is back streets) but it is a proper kosher company with many years of experience. Take a look at their website. They gave a presentation at the Fareham group many years ago describing what they do and how they do it.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Tony Still
I think you ought to be able to get some financial help from Apple with any bill for data recovery. You'll probably have to fight for it but a goodwill payment (whilst admitting nothing!) is surely in order.

Euan's advice is very sound too but is the step after next since the data to backup is AWOL. For our information, what disk(s) are in your Mac?

I hope someone has a better idea but I can only see two steps:
1. Double-check that you really can't recover the data personally. Check the 'Used Space' on the external drive (ensure TM is off before connecting so nothing gets written). If there's lots of space used then that's good. If there isn't then that points to specialist recovery as does not being able to access the disk at all.
If there is lots of space used, TM has got confused. You may be able to recover the data piecemeal. If you can't see it in Finder, you could try Howard Oakley (he has investigated TM in depth so may have a bright idea).
2. If there's nowt showing on the drive (and you don't fancy the software that Euan suggested), or it's physically faulty, then a specialist recovery is the only way forward. Either use Apple's recommendation (which might help when it comes to telling them that you expect them to pay) or find a reputable UK service. A UK service may be quicker but is unlikely to do anything different to the US service.

I have no experience of using such services. Can anyone else make a recommendation?

To add to Euan's longer term advice: as well as having more than one back-up drive, best practice involves replacing drives before they break. Pick your own number but a drive becomes unreliable after 3-5 years depending upon usage. And, yes, I too have drives that are still working after far longer than that but you can't trust them with the only copy of any important data because Murphy's law says they will fail, waiting only until it's most inconvenient.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Euan Williams
The 2020 iMac SSD drive is soldered to the motherboard, so access will be electronic without dismantling rather than physically direct.

You are right to be very wary of compromising the existing data by fiddling about.

Time Machine has its problems (see, among much else, the estimable Howard Oakley, one of my heroes) solving these can be complex, not for the faint-hearted, and certainly not for beginners!

Unreliability: many Mac users keep their Tm/c drive permanently attached and running which, if the Tm/c checks are set to 'every hour' (which they used to be) will cause undue wear to the drive mechanism and increase the statistical risk of a T/mc glitch. This has happened to at least one of our members. Apart from that, if disaster (power surge?) strikes, the attached drive will also be affected.

I avoid Time Machine and instead make hard back-ups of files as needed by drag and drop. I use clones from time to time, especially before System and security upgrades. It is easy and quick to check that these 'boot' properly. Carbon Copy Cloner (Bombich.com) is very reliable and easy to use even with HFS+ and APFS format complications. He maintains very close relations with Apple and a remarkably open knowledge base too.

You are wise to be very cautious about DIY data recovery with so much at stake. I was at the Fareham meeting with Derek when the Portsmouth Data Recovery chap spoke. They have been around for many years and I would forget the London Drive Savers option.

My firm suggestion? Talk to the Portsmouth service, you have nothing to lose at this point and maybe survival to gain. These guys have EXPERIENCE, and they aren't greedy :))

Re: Data loss

Avatar David Moon
When we upgraded to Big Sur prior Time Machine backups whilst showing in the time Machine Sidebar were not accessible. I just wonder if the same could have happened in John’s case and he’d had had no need to access but assumed as looked OK. If so there is just a chance that his pre Big Sur Time Machine bundle is undamaged?

Re: Data loss

Avatar Tony Still
That's one of the reasons why I'd like to know how much space is used on the drive. And it's not been confirmed whether the drive is physically working (if it don't spin-up then nobody short of a recovery service is going to read anything).

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
Phew……normality restored.

As suggested above, I took my HD (& the iMac just in case) 50 miles to DataQuest International Ltd in Portsmouth who were brilliant. Thank you for the suggestion chaps.

Very helpful and informative chat with Dan Dillington on the phone before I went (arrangement is no success, no charge). Their Standard Service cost £299 per device but they treated my iMac and the HD as one device.. ( So a hell of a lot cheaper than Apple’s chums in California !!) I did not pay extra for Urgent turnaround nor was there any upsetting spiel to do so although they do offer a quicker more costly service.

I left everything with Dan mid afternoon Thursday and at 9.30 am on Friday he sent me screenshots of my Photo library and my Mail folders to verify he was finding the right stuff. I could have got my devices back Friday / Saturday but I decided to leave them until DQ had purchased 2 differing brand HD’s and backed-up to these. After all if Apple’s in-house “experts” could cause all this mayhem whilst undertaking a back-up I thought it best I didn’t trust myself but leave it to Dan Dan the Computer Man. I collected my iMac and the old and new HD's this morning. So they did the necessary service in less than 48 hrs and the acquisition of HD's and doing the backups only extended the total time including a weekend from Thursday afternoon to Wednesday morning. I think that's damned good service.

Yes Derek. You were right DQ operate out of a terraced house in a narrow Portsmouth street, not glossy modern premises. I couldn’t go in to view their workshop or “clean room” referred to on its website due to Covid, but heyho. I’d rather pay for courtesy, and efficiency than front and gloss.

They seemed and proved to be on the top of their task, with good customer liaison and communication. So I would certainly recommend them and give praiseworthy feedback.

The mention earlier on this post of Dan’s presentation to the Fareham branch of our User-group was a pointer in the right direction.


So several things now learnt include :-

1. Replace HD’s every so often just in case. Don’t wait until they fail or become erratic. Modern HD’s may be cheaper nowadays but the build quality may also have gone down, so periodic replacement seems even more prudent.

2. Check after a critical/special back-up that it has been successful (Yes Apple, hope you are paying attention, because you didn’t. ).

3. If Apple were trying for a year to solve a warranty problem of “erratic keyboard issue” could the keyboard under Apple’s screen-share session been sending wrong commands to the iMac?

4. I, when in Apple’s screen-share control, should have done the manual back-up to a new clean HD thus leaving earlier back-ups on my usual drive to fall back on if a catastrophe occurred.


Barring a reinstall of printer driver I have not had to tweak anything yet, or perhaps that is still to come. My iMac Photos, family tree, Document folders, email folders, expanded Dock etc etc are as they used to be. Yippe yay Yo Well done DQ.

Interesting point though re Big Sur possibly erasing earlier back-ups. Maybe I should have disconnected the HD (still working , but consigned to 3rd reserve now) after the Apple back-up , then reinstalled the OS, and only then reconnected the Time Machine back-up to undertake the migration.

Anyway it's fixed (fingers crossed).

When I'm ready I'll speak to AppleCare and invite them to be more helpful !!!

Re: Data loss

Avatar Euan Williams
Absolutely delighted for you, John, and you might like to add caution about simple reliance on Time Machine as a fifth thing. Clones are pretty useful, especially before System updates. Couple these with daily backups of important data changes, and a resolve not to keep backup drives constantly mounted and you should live a long and happy digital life!

Re: Data loss

Avatar Eric Jervis
To the CEO of Apple UK:
Sorry to bother you with this old boy, but I'm sick and tired of being b*ggered about by your underlings, some of whom need a good kick up the a***. (here insert your first post and the salient parts of your last post) A friend suggested I should spread it all over social media that 2020 iMacs are crap, but I don't want to do that; I've always found your products to be reliable in the past; what do you suggest?

Re: Data loss

Avatar Tony Still
Oh well done John! I'm so pleased you got all the data back. Sometimes you just have to go to the right experts.

I'm with Eric on the payment (but perhaps in different words): I think you stand a good chance of getting Apple to pay or at least to contribute. They did cause all this after you went to their expert for help with a defective product (and you got it done for much less money than they would have done). Don't expect them to admit anything (they won't set a precedent), look for an ex-gratia payment.

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
Thank you all for your comments.

Other fish to fry for next few days, but Apple will be having me in contact soon !!

Getting money back would be nice, but getting Data back was nicer plus plus believe you me.

Doubtless other good UK based data recovery outfits exist (although DriveSavers in the USA claim they reach parts that others can't), but as stated I must give DQ in Portsmouth a very heartfelt recommendation.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Eleanor Spenceley
Potentially losing data is usually the hardest lesson to force you into doing an effective backup strategy. If anyone is not following at least a 3-2-1 Strategy then they should consider it ASAP.

Personally, I have a 9-7-2-(1) strategy

2 Timemachines switched every 6 months, 2 Local external drive Backups, 3 Computers holding the same account data also syncing a lot of documents in iCloud as well as 2 external drives off site at family homes. But I'm a little OCD on the matter. ;-)

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
Apple still failed to solve problem of " sticking keyboard" despite 3 or 4 keyboards and many hours on the phone to Apple Support.

Last week, they opted to replace the Logic Board / SSD (normal cost £472 but free to me) , so we will see how that fares.

As regards the Data loss the discussion continues as between "it's not company policy to reimburse re data loss, not our fault" to " let us see invoice/proof of the monetary outlay and we'll come back to you".

Re: Data loss

Avatar Tony Still
Keep at them John - they're looking pretty inept over this whole episode and I think they owe you. If you were to push it, they might be obliged to give you a whole new machine too since it has never been properly fixed from new.

And as to changing the logic board to fix the keyboard: just tell them to make sure to back up the SSD before they bin it!

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
Sorry Tony if my wording was less clear than intended. I did ext HD backup up before letting the iMac go. AND I got Apple to check that the backup was kosher.

Got iMac back yesterday. As the logic board comes with the SSD attached nowadays, the machine was empty just like a new one out of its box.. First data migration was incomplete in various aspects and I thought B***** , but when migration repeated this appeared OK. Still had to restore email settings, printer driver and a couple of other tweaks but so far so good.

Yes I thought a new machine might have been simpler all round but Apple wanted to go the tortuous route.

Only time will tell whether they have cured original intermittent problem. Boy, did I find the absence of the iMac for the week so inconvenient, and glad to have it back.

Only the costs of and associated with the Data loss still to be resolved with Apple. Will keep you posted.

Re: Data loss

Avatar John Nicholas
At long last after prevarication, refusal, poor communication, and foreign barely intelligible staff dealing, Apple is refunding thei bare cost of my Data recovery, but not anything for time, hassle and mileage. But although still annoyed I decided to draw a line and get the matter closed.

I did think that the quickest and most customer friendly gesture would have been to have provided a replacement device...........but no, this would have nibbled in to Mr Cook's bonus of £550 million which might have been too painful !!!!!

I hope after all this time the original "sticking keyboard" problem has been resolved ; we shall see.

Re: Data loss

Avatar Eric Jervis
Just another bunch of shysters really....
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